Antrhopocentric, theo-centric, and Christo-centric – The Christo-centric approach would not only imply the welcomed forgiveness in Jesus for my sins, but also the need for my repentance, which of course means the often unwelcome call for changing the course of my actions or inactions. Its this last item that's always a pain.
Submitted by pastor joe on Wed, 04/23/2008 - 01:12.
Hum, those words "my need" there rub me wrong. I'm not denying that repentance is part of the deal, but somehow that phrasing makes it sound like I'm the one responsible for my repentance and that it's something I need to generate. Sort of makes grace like a credit card where you get all the good stuff up front, but then end up paying for it big time on the back side. Sort of makes the Gospel a new Law which means were even more screwed now than we were before Christ because that new Law is that much harder to keep.
For me "Green Living" is all about stewardship. Everything we have and see is God's and we have been given the task of managing and using it for His glory. It is not about "Me" or about saving the world. We have been given this management responsibility. I believe it will look different for different people but I have found that the three R's help me to be responsible and live greener. They are "Reduce, Recycle, and Reuse".
Use Compact Fluorescent light bulbs. They use less power, they last longer, and they are recyclable.
Use eco friendly laundry detergent. Many detergents are harsh on the environment. Even when many of the name brands say they are if you read the fine print you'll see that they are only talking about some of the chemicals in them are. Others are still harsh.
Don't drink bottled water. A lot of the bottles aren't recyclable. Of what is most isn't recycled. These used up bottles are quickly becoming a high volume thing at the dumps. Instead I use a watter bottle (nalgene so I can be hip) or a class and use tap water. Most bottled water is straight from some cities tap anyway.
Avoid Styrofoam. The stuff ends up in the trash and dumps while it just doesn't break down. It's junk that will be around for a very long time. Why are we still using this as a packing material?
Check books out from the library. Why buy a book so it needs to be printed again only to have it sit on my bookshelf when I'm done reading it. It's cheaper to check it out from the local library. And, it wastes less paper. Granted there are times to buy books. But, it's definitely not every time.
Buy less disposable stuff. Why drink coffee from a paper cup when I can use a travel cup instead? Over a period of years this can make a difference.
One of the areas I would love to see more talk in is taking care of our water system. This is a big deal. For example, Algae converts about 80% of the worlds CO2 into breathable oxygen. This is a really important thing if we want to breathe. And, while we talk a lot about planting trees, the stuff in our water system is extremely important and doesn't get enough time in the spotlight.
Submitted by pastor ryan on Tue, 04/22/2008 - 17:39.
Joe, I like your list. Colleen and I have talked about how we can help, especially since we are in an apartment situation (so we can't have a compost). We decided to get rid of paper towels and (soon) napkins and move to cloth hand towels and cloth napkins. Sure you may consume water washing them (actually not that much) but you are putting less in the dumps. We also have switched to 'naked' cleaners. They don't have strong destructive chemicals but still get the job done. Colleen has also decided that she would not purchase more clothing. I'm also riding my bike to work more often to cut down on gas emissions but mainly because gas costs too much! As for the book suggestion...I need to consider it more. I love purchasing books. Colleen, though, goes to the library all the time. We also love trading books with other people. It's a great way to see what books your friends like. And I love water bottles! (now switching to the stainless steel, plastic apparently leaks nasty chemicals) So those are some of the things we do. I know we can do more but with most things, making a small change opens the door for bigger change.
Submitted by pastor joe on Wed, 04/23/2008 - 01:14.
I hear you on the books thing. Of course, part of that is because, as I read, I underline, highlight, and put notes in the margins. One of those blessings of my freakish brain is the ability to remember those notes and go back to them months and even years later when the need arises.
However, if I don't like the book or don't see it being worth keeping, I'll post it on Amazon and sell it dirt cheap to someone else.
Submitted by pastor ryan on Wed, 04/23/2008 - 17:34.
I've been playing around with the idea of a book exchange with some fellow pastors and lay'people'. That we each would select a book that we read or want read. Then read and send that book to the next person in the chain, while they send the book they are reading to the next person. Eventually you will get your original book back, with all the comments and markings of others to help you. And you've read some other books too! I know it'll cost money and gas to send the books but I've been thinking that the benefits out way the costs.
The US is one of the few lucky countries where we can actually drink from the taps. But we've got all sorts of crazy chemicals in 'em as it is. Of course, the bottled water comes out of taps in Arkansas, so I'm a bit weary of those as well...
Water is about to become a huge commodity in the next 30 or so years, if not far sooner. If the US doesn't focus on alleviating the problem now, we might be forced to by water from 5 dollar bottles, or start boiling our water like the rest of the world. Potent potables for 400, Trebek.
I can just imagine living on well water again. The earth is an amazing thing. We can mess things up and it can recover. When water that is tainted goes in the ground it's filtered by the ground. If you drill down far enough there is clean water at some point down from the filtering.
This is God the super engineer at work.
That being said, for many of us here in the US (and many around the world) water comes from the tap, goes into the sewers, goes to a processing plant, and then comes back out the tap. It's amazing how we can circumvent a great filtering system that God put in place. Not only do we taint our own water supply but we circumvent Gods engineering, too.
Submitted by Rob Feature on Tue, 04/22/2008 - 14:10.
This is my #1. We want our cake and our iPods and our SUVs and our Plasmas and our new Jordache Jeans...and we want to eat it too.
We can't be consumeristic/materialistic and be green. We need to stop buying, and start being happy with more humble living. The more we buy, the more it takes to produce, ship, and package that stuff, not to mention it 'junks-up' our spiritual lives.
I say to become a green nation, we have to be less consumeristic and more content with what we already have. And I wonder if, at that point, we'll become more spiritual as well.
A question that comes up for me is what is at the center of it? Is it about being green and as a side effect we become more spiritual? Or, is it about becoming more spiritual and because of that becoming more green? And then, which way should it be?
For some people becoming green is the new money. It's the center of their world and that's not good. I really think we need to become more spiritual and as a result become more green. Especially, if we are Christians trying to put God where he deserves to be and follow him.
But, if someone becomes more spiritual as a result of being green I won't complain.
Submitted by Rob Feature on Tue, 04/22/2008 - 15:30.
Yeah, for Christians, becoming more spiritual should equal becoming more green. But for people outside our faith (ie. most of the country) becoming more green could equal becoming more spiritual.
So the order (chicken or egg) depends on who you are.
Submitted by pastor joe on Tue, 04/22/2008 - 17:37.
I'm not sure about this "less stuff = more spiritual" connection. I very much agree that more stuff can result in less spiritual, but to flip it seems to be a stretch. After all, when we flip it, who says spiritual will fill the void? It seems to me there's all kinds of other things we could come up with rather than faith.
I think we need to be very careful to not say stuff is bad. That can quickly go in the direction of the physical being bad that gnosticism says. It was God who created stuff. It was God who gave the garden to man. It was God who made a good creation and told man to live in that.
So, I think we need to just be very careful when we say stuff is good or bad. That we take stuff in a situation in the context of Gods desire there into account.
Though, I can see how the stuff = bad can be a conclusion that can be easy to come to. One of the passages talked about in this last weekends church service where I went was where Jesus told a man that to follow him he had to sell off his stuff. I've herd that passage used many times. But, that same God is the one who blessed Job with a bunch of stuff.
The situation with stuff goes deeper than whether there is stuff or there isn't stuff. Maybe a better way to look at it is not that there is a relation of how spiritual some is related to how much stuff them have but rather there is a relation between how spiritual they are and how they interact with the stuff around them. Thoughts?
Submitted by pastor joe on Wed, 04/23/2008 - 01:18.
I think that last line that you have there is the key, not just with stuff, but with anything. After all, my initial post said that material stuff and other things (people, piety, good deeds, etc) can all drive us away from faith. All of these things aren't evil in and of them selves, but it's what we do with it/them ... or, as you said, how we interact with it/them.
A lot of people are so eager on going green that they're actually using more energy than they would have without going green. Take the current ethynol craze. It takes more oil to produce ethynol for a specific purpose than it would have to just use oil in the first place. Or take the refurbished construction, where they're ripping out and throwing away all sorts of materials to upgrade it with "green" construction. Well, that's all waste right there.
If you're replacing your light bulbs or whatnot, wait until the old ones burn out, THEN replace your light bulbs with flourescents/halogens/whatever.
Also, go NUCLEAR. The number one power supply in the US today is coal power, which is the dirtiest dirt you can burn, no matter the bitumen content. Nuclear is far cleaner and is the most efficient power source there is. And invest in wind and solar... cleaner, but not nearly as efficient.
Submitted by pastor joe on Wed, 04/23/2008 - 01:20.
As a bit more on this, a few weeks ago when we were supposed to turn our lights out for an hour, Google turned their "lights out" on the search page by making it black. Oddly enough, it takes more energy to have a black webpage than it does a white one.
Submitted by pastor joe on Tue, 04/22/2008 - 17:42.
For us, a huge move towards being green happened when we moved into downtown Denver.
For example, because we're in a condo, it's only on the rare subzero days that we have to turn on our heat. Most of the time, between insulation and the heat from the units around us, we're a bit on the warm side.
The move also meant going from two cars to one and a huge increase in the use of public transit. Living downtown also played a factor in us buying our new car. We went with a Honda Fit partially because of it's size (or lack there of) and maneuverability, both of which are important when you have to parallel park on packed streets.
I'm not sure how much we'd have thought about these things if we hadn't gone urban.
Submitted by pastor ryan on Tue, 04/22/2008 - 18:16.
I think a big factor in 'how' to go green is based on the context of where you live. When I went to Wyoming earlier this week, I got to talk to my pastor friend who is very eco-aware (if that's even a word). He discussed that having big vehicles with diesel (trucks) and having multiple vehicles for their context is almost essential in a rural context. Whereas people in a urban context need one vehicle and can use public transportation. The best thing to ask is "What can I do in my context and my situation?"
Submitted by pastor joe on Fri, 05/09/2008 - 15:30.
Here's an interesting list of suggests on living green. Some of them, like showering with your spouse, are even rather fun (although I'm guessing that might go against the next suggestion and increase shower time)!
I was just thinking and remembered an article I read a while back on heating without using any fuel (well, nothing other than the sun). I doubt you'll heat your whole house with this, but this solar air convection heater seems like it might be a neat weekend project.
Also, while searching for that instructable, I found this, which also seems like an interesting project.
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Call for Change
Antrhopocentric, theo-centric, and Christo-centric – The Christo-centric approach would not only imply the welcomed forgiveness in Jesus for my sins, but also the need for my repentance, which of course means the often unwelcome call for changing the course of my actions or inactions. Its this last item that's always a pain.
my need?
Hum, those words "my need" there rub me wrong. I'm not denying that repentance is part of the deal, but somehow that phrasing makes it sound like I'm the one responsible for my repentance and that it's something I need to generate. Sort of makes grace like a credit card where you get all the good stuff up front, but then end up paying for it big time on the back side. Sort of makes the Gospel a new Law which means were even more screwed now than we were before Christ because that new Law is that much harder to keep.
The Three R's
For me "Green Living" is all about stewardship. Everything we have and see is God's and we have been given the task of managing and using it for His glory. It is not about "Me" or about saving the world. We have been given this management responsibility. I believe it will look different for different people but I have found that the three R's help me to be responsible and live greener. They are "Reduce, Recycle, and Reuse".
A few things
Here are a few things I've been trying to do...
One of the areas I would love to see more talk in is taking care of our water system. This is a big deal. For example, Algae converts about 80% of the worlds CO2 into breathable oxygen. This is a really important thing if we want to breathe. And, while we talk a lot about planting trees, the stuff in our water system is extremely important and doesn't get enough time in the spotlight.
Good List
Joe, I like your list. Colleen and I have talked about how we can help, especially since we are in an apartment situation (so we can't have a compost). We decided to get rid of paper towels and (soon) napkins and move to cloth hand towels and cloth napkins. Sure you may consume water washing them (actually not that much) but you are putting less in the dumps. We also have switched to 'naked' cleaners. They don't have strong destructive chemicals but still get the job done. Colleen has also decided that she would not purchase more clothing. I'm also riding my bike to work more often to cut down on gas emissions but mainly because gas costs too much! As for the book suggestion...I need to consider it more. I love purchasing books. Colleen, though, goes to the library all the time. We also love trading books with other people. It's a great way to see what books your friends like. And I love water bottles! (now switching to the stainless steel, plastic apparently leaks nasty chemicals) So those are some of the things we do. I know we can do more but with most things, making a small change opens the door for bigger change.
books
I hear you on the books thing. Of course, part of that is because, as I read, I underline, highlight, and put notes in the margins. One of those blessings of my freakish brain is the ability to remember those notes and go back to them months and even years later when the need arises.
However, if I don't like the book or don't see it being worth keeping, I'll post it on Amazon and sell it dirt cheap to someone else.
book exchange
I've been playing around with the idea of a book exchange with some fellow pastors and lay'people'. That we each would select a book that we read or want read. Then read and send that book to the next person in the chain, while they send the book they are reading to the next person. Eventually you will get your original book back, with all the comments and markings of others to help you. And you've read some other books too! I know it'll cost money and gas to send the books but I've been thinking that the benefits out way the costs.
interesting idea
that could be really cool
Potable water
The US is one of the few lucky countries where we can actually drink from the taps. But we've got all sorts of crazy chemicals in 'em as it is. Of course, the bottled water comes out of taps in Arkansas, so I'm a bit weary of those as well...
Water is about to become a huge commodity in the next 30 or so years, if not far sooner. If the US doesn't focus on alleviating the problem now, we might be forced to by water from 5 dollar bottles, or start boiling our water like the rest of the world. Potent potables for 400, Trebek.
Well Water
I can just imagine living on well water again. The earth is an amazing thing. We can mess things up and it can recover. When water that is tainted goes in the ground it's filtered by the ground. If you drill down far enough there is clean water at some point down from the filtering.
This is God the super engineer at work.
That being said, for many of us here in the US (and many around the world) water comes from the tap, goes into the sewers, goes to a processing plant, and then comes back out the tap. It's amazing how we can circumvent a great filtering system that God put in place. Not only do we taint our own water supply but we circumvent Gods engineering, too.
Stop Buying Stuff
This is my #1. We want our cake and our iPods and our SUVs and our Plasmas and our new Jordache Jeans...and we want to eat it too.
We can't be consumeristic/materialistic and be green. We need to stop buying, and start being happy with more humble living. The more we buy, the more it takes to produce, ship, and package that stuff, not to mention it 'junks-up' our spiritual lives.
I say to become a green nation, we have to be less consumeristic and more content with what we already have. And I wonder if, at that point, we'll become more spiritual as well.
The Center Of It
Have you ever owned Jordache jeans?
A question that comes up for me is what is at the center of it? Is it about being green and as a side effect we become more spiritual? Or, is it about becoming more spiritual and because of that becoming more green? And then, which way should it be?
For some people becoming green is the new money. It's the center of their world and that's not good. I really think we need to become more spiritual and as a result become more green. Especially, if we are Christians trying to put God where he deserves to be and follow him.
But, if someone becomes more spiritual as a result of being green I won't complain.
Yup
Yeah, for Christians, becoming more spiritual should equal becoming more green. But for people outside our faith (ie. most of the country) becoming more green could equal becoming more spiritual.
So the order (chicken or egg) depends on who you are.
stuff = non-spiritual?
I'm not sure about this "less stuff = more spiritual" connection. I very much agree that more stuff can result in less spiritual, but to flip it seems to be a stretch. After all, when we flip it, who says spiritual will fill the void? It seems to me there's all kinds of other things we could come up with rather than faith.
God Created Stuff
I think we need to be very careful to not say stuff is bad. That can quickly go in the direction of the physical being bad that gnosticism says. It was God who created stuff. It was God who gave the garden to man. It was God who made a good creation and told man to live in that.
So, I think we need to just be very careful when we say stuff is good or bad. That we take stuff in a situation in the context of Gods desire there into account.
Though, I can see how the stuff = bad can be a conclusion that can be easy to come to. One of the passages talked about in this last weekends church service where I went was where Jesus told a man that to follow him he had to sell off his stuff. I've herd that passage used many times. But, that same God is the one who blessed Job with a bunch of stuff.
The situation with stuff goes deeper than whether there is stuff or there isn't stuff. Maybe a better way to look at it is not that there is a relation of how spiritual some is related to how much stuff them have but rather there is a relation between how spiritual they are and how they interact with the stuff around them. Thoughts?
interactions
I think that last line that you have there is the key, not just with stuff, but with anything. After all, my initial post said that material stuff and other things (people, piety, good deeds, etc) can all drive us away from faith. All of these things aren't evil in and of them selves, but it's what we do with it/them ... or, as you said, how we interact with it/them.
Green waste
A lot of people are so eager on going green that they're actually using more energy than they would have without going green. Take the current ethynol craze. It takes more oil to produce ethynol for a specific purpose than it would have to just use oil in the first place. Or take the refurbished construction, where they're ripping out and throwing away all sorts of materials to upgrade it with "green" construction. Well, that's all waste right there.
If you're replacing your light bulbs or whatnot, wait until the old ones burn out, THEN replace your light bulbs with flourescents/halogens/whatever.
Also, go NUCLEAR. The number one power supply in the US today is coal power, which is the dirtiest dirt you can burn, no matter the bitumen content. Nuclear is far cleaner and is the most efficient power source there is. And invest in wind and solar... cleaner, but not nearly as efficient.
black google
As a bit more on this, a few weeks ago when we were supposed to turn our lights out for an hour, Google turned their "lights out" on the search page by making it black. Oddly enough, it takes more energy to have a black webpage than it does a white one.
blackle
They even now have 'black google' called Blackle. It will even tell you how many watts are saved.
our green move
For us, a huge move towards being green happened when we moved into downtown Denver.
For example, because we're in a condo, it's only on the rare subzero days that we have to turn on our heat. Most of the time, between insulation and the heat from the units around us, we're a bit on the warm side.
The move also meant going from two cars to one and a huge increase in the use of public transit. Living downtown also played a factor in us buying our new car. We went with a Honda Fit partially because of it's size (or lack there of) and maneuverability, both of which are important when you have to parallel park on packed streets.
I'm not sure how much we'd have thought about these things if we hadn't gone urban.
Where you live
I think a big factor in 'how' to go green is based on the context of where you live. When I went to Wyoming earlier this week, I got to talk to my pastor friend who is very eco-aware (if that's even a word). He discussed that having big vehicles with diesel (trucks) and having multiple vehicles for their context is almost essential in a rural context. Whereas people in a urban context need one vehicle and can use public transportation. The best thing to ask is "What can I do in my context and my situation?"
green living suggestions
Here's an interesting list of suggests on living green. Some of them, like showering with your spouse, are even rather fun (although I'm guessing that might go against the next suggestion and increase shower time)!
http://www.wireandtwine.com/green/50/
more green
I was just thinking and remembered an article I read a while back on heating without using any fuel (well, nothing other than the sun). I doubt you'll heat your whole house with this, but this solar air convection heater seems like it might be a neat weekend project.
Also, while searching for that instructable, I found this, which also seems like an interesting project.