If you happen to visit any of the online discussion forums regarding the topic of religious debate, you will discover that there is one question that an atheist or skeptic will inevitably ask. And in most cases, you will notice that the theist responds to that question as the starting point for a meaningful interchange. The theist has accepted the grounds of the debate, and has taken on the burden of proof.
The question from the atheist is stated something like the following: “I will believe in God ONLY if you can prove to me that he exists?”
Asking for evidence to a claim is justifiable, however, if this question is the foundational premise for the discussion, then the theist doesn’t stand a chance. For the atheist to refute any of the theistic arguments is merely to demonstrate that he is not persuaded.
The Problem With Proofs
A proof is essentially an argument, and an argument consists of three properties: validation, soundness, and cogency. Consider the following:
All cows eat grass
Grass is the color blue
Therefore, cows eat blue grass
This argument is valid but it is not sound, because it is not true that grass is the color blue. Consider another argument:
All men are mortal
Socrates is a man
Therefore, Socrates is mortal
This argument is both valid and sound; because both premises are true and so, therefore the conclusion is true. However, the third property to an argument is cogency, which is another word for persuasiveness. The cogency of an argument is dependent upon the convinced state of the recipient. So, to use this latest argument again, if the recipient somehow believes that Socrates is not mortal but rather immortal, then he will deny the second premise of the argument. The problem with proofs, then is that they are person-relative. Note the distinction: I am not stating that “truths” are relative or subjective, but rather that the persuasiveness of a successful argument is subjective.
Logical Certainty
When someone is asking for evidences or proofs to a claim, they are asking for certainty. It is important to note that there are two kinds of certainty. One is “logical certainty” which consists of such things as the laws of logic and mathematics. The second is “psychological certainty” which is everything else. All questions that pertain to worldviews fall into the psychological certainty category. It is my observation that the expectation to the “proof of God” question is usually held to an improbable standard of certainty.
The Right Question
Having read this far, you probably are wondering if I am opposed to giving arguments for theism. To the contrary, I am very much in favor of evidential apologetics and believe that a solid case can be made for the existence of God. The issue at hand, as explained in this article, is that the theist need not accept the burden of proof as the terms of engagement. The theist-atheist discussion is essentially a “worldview” dialog, and both positions respond to the great questions of life.
Therefore, it is better that the discussion be grounded with the following question:
“Based on what we know about reality, what worldview gives us the most coherent picture of the world in which we live?”
When the conversation is applied to reality, The atheist too, must also build a case for his/her worldview, and provide reasons for how to explain the existence of a world by strictly material causes. Atheism has answers to the big questions in life — it is not the absence of a belief system. The dialog should continue, but it should start in the right place.
a postmodern apologetic
I think this is approach is refreshing after the modern age where Christians essentially embraced the "proof" approach. While the evidence is there and it's compelling, to base our faith on a body of evidence that is continually growing, puts our faith on eternally unstable ground (we can't believe this week because of that discovery, but next week, we're good again because of something new that's been found).
Pragmatics in worldviews, what a concept.
Reformed Epistemology
yes, you're right... embracing proof as such is a very modern approach. The idea is 'if we can't find a formula for it, it must not exist.'
Theists need to be smarter about not allowing themselves to fall in this trap, and yet I see it all the time. I think it was Alvin Planting who really bought this to the surface, via his 'basic beliefs' approach. check out reformed epistemology:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_epistemology
epistemology reading
So, pdelsignore, if you had to recommend one book on Reformed Epistemology, what would you recommend?
books on RE
well, the classic book on this would be "God and Other Minds" by Plantinga, but that is a hard read... actually anything by Plantinga is a hard read as he is a hardcore philosopher. I'm speaking for myself here, so my intention is not to say it is a hard read for you.
For a more accessible read, I like Ronald Nash, and his book "Faith and Reason" (http://www.amazon.com/Faith-Reason-Ronald-H-Nash/dp/0310294010) is a must read for good worldview thoughts including RE. In fact, the 'cogency' aspect in an argument is also something I learned from Nash, among other things. I don't know if Nash would categorize himself as an RE guy, he holds to a position titled "inductive presuppositionalism" which to me seems very close to RE, or at least a flavor of it.
hope this helps
Nevermind
I thought I was going somewhere, but I ended up in La La Land...
*sheepish grin*
it was a fun argument
hey, I was just going to respond to your argument. I actually liked it... but there was, at least in my opinion, a problem with your first premise. nevertheless, it was a fun argument.
it was fun
Yeah, I actually meant it to be a false proof (though the premise I was going to show as the problem one was the second) since we know that truth is never relative. But in the course of building it, I lost track of what I was trying to illustrate. Sometimes I get wires crossed in my head and lose my place. It happens rather easily at times. I suppose that's why I'm not a professional debater. ;)
dang!
Now I want to read your thoughts! lol
for posterity's sake
Well, ok. Let's see if I can remember what it was...
Truth is affirmed by the cogency of an argument.
The cogency of an argument is person-relative.
Therefore, truth is person-relative.
That's the general idea of my proof I came up with. The point, I think, was to show that cogency of an argument is not relative because truth is never relative.
Then I was going to say something about a person's will to believe, etc, etc...
It's funny, when I read in the Bible, everything seems so black and white to me (as I'm sure you've gathered), but the minute I try to start playing philosopher my mind goes to mush. lol
...or did you mean about La La Land? It's scary, you wouldn't want to go there. ;)
black and white
So, I'm curious, is the Bible being black and white a blessing or a curse?
Flog me please.
I guess that didn't quite come out right, and I didn't realize just how it comes across until you said that. I'm far from a guru in heurmenutics and I must apologize. I think that's the way I made it sound. Forgive me.
There are times in my Bible reading that what I read seems so black and white, and I have a hard time understanding why anyone could say that it's hard to understand. Then I get something like Daniel 9 and I have to rely on other's knowlege to gain somewhat of an understanding.
To answer your original question, I see it as a blessing. My curse is that I can't seem to get what's in my head into a written or verbal form so that people can see and understand the same as I do. I guess that's not unique to me though.
no flogging needed
I didn't mean it in a flogging kind of way and didn't see a need to apologize. I apologize for making it sound that way. Actually, my comment was more of a curiosity.
I mean, some people read it and there it is, it's quite simple, to the point, and clear. I can see this being a real blessing. At the same time, I can see this as a curse in that other people don't see it that way and it makes it frustrating that they don't get what seems so obvious to you.
Hit the nail's head.
Yes, you hit the nail on the head there. :)
Superior Worldview
This reminds me of the book "How Now Shall We Live" by Chuck Colson where he compares the Christian worldview with an atheistic one, and finds the Christian worldview as answering those big questions in life and providing a much better foundation for society.